Subject: Hedwig Künneke

born: March 7, 1913

Teacher

Interviewer: F. Hülck

Mrs Künneke: So my name is Hedwig Künneke. I was born in Münster on March 7, 1913 and I spent my youth here in Münster. I agree to this documentary being released. I studied in Münster and I wanted to become a technical teacher. As a student I became familiar with national socialism, and I was also exposed to it through conversations and interaction with my fellow students and during this time I witnessed some quite ugly things here in Münster. The indications were not exactly favourable - there was rioting in the city. One evening I came across one of these brawls myself and I only found my way out again with the protection of the police. The city was often a very upsetting place. All kinds of political parties with differing views encountered one another and had street brawls. Then national socialism somehow made itself known to us young people and promised improvements, peace and so on. One evening I took part in a midsummer party which we young people were very enthusiastic about. Nothing political was mentioned, so we weren't actually confronted with the idea of national socialism, but I didn't like it. I was sceptical and the whole thing made me even more so. We heard about Munich and other cities and heard that they were reacting in the same way. We heard about the storm troopers, but not about the SS at that stage, and I didn't really know what it was all about. I didn't know very many people, because I didn't have any brothers and my father had died in 1918. So my mother, my sister and I lived together and we didn't hear much about these things. After my exams I didn't find a job and we had to be self-reliant.

After this I did come into contact with national socialism and I was astonished at how politicised the schools were and how the storm troopers and the SS and all the different groups like the Nazi Association and the National Socialist Teacher's Association, I think it was called, were taking on new members indiscriminately, without proper enrolment, just because it seemed the thing to do. I became very suspicious and I began to become politically aware and inform myself. First and foremost I read the book "Mein Kampf". There was a joke going around at the time: You can save for a Volkswagen, but what you get always shoots - it is always the cannons instead of the cars. All these sayings made me suspicious. And then one couldn't go freely to church. That marked a crass change for me, from the naive folk from the moor district (Mrs Künneke spent some time as a teacher in Emsland) to whom you could impart only good things, lively things, and then here suddenly everything was organised and under control. Gradually one noticed how things were moving towards a power struggle and war. I returned in the autumn of 1937 and in 1939 war broke out.

Interviewer: How did this become noticeable?

Mrs Künneke: The "Wehrmacht" (term used to refer to the armed forces from 1933 to 1945, translator) was being rebuilt. What did they call the armed forces again?

Interviewer: "Reichswehr" (lit. "Defence Force of the Empire", term used to refer to the armed forces in the Weimar Republic, translator) - was that what they called themselves?

Mrs Künneke: I don't know anymore.

Interviewer: Were the storm troopers still in existence?

Mrs Künneke: Yes, they were.

Interviewer: I thought they had been banned after the Röhm revolt...

Mrs Künneke: No, the storm troopers were still in existence and so were the SS.

Interviewer: Yes.

Mrs Künneke: And they were groups within a larger group, and then I heard from Nuremberg (from 1933 to 1938, the party conferences of the National Socialist Party were held in Nuremberg, translator), although I never went there, since those are things which could never arouse my enthusiasm, but I saw how the youth were drawn in by the national socialist ideology. The youth was excited by large, open sports festivals. The young people received attention and respect and were not treated as the dumb kids which they had previously been. Up till then children were supposed to keep their mouths shut but there they found a new lease of life. By these means the young people were literally captivated by the Nazis and they were enthusiastic and participated. Then there were the state youth groups, and the leaders of both the BDM (German Girls' Association) and the Hitler Youth were so self-important that it was quite sickening. (Founded in 1926, the "Hitlerjugend" and the "Bund Deutscher Mädchen" became state youth groups in 1936. From 1939 onwards membership was compulsory for fourteen to eighteen year olds, translator.)

Mrs Künneke: With leisure activities.

Interviewer: Good.

Mrs Künneke: And the children here were kept busy as members of the "Deutsche Jungmädel" and the "Deutsches Jungvolk" (state youth groups for girls and boys aged ten to fourteen, translator) and they enjoyed doing sports and going on marches together, singing and living a joyful life and they had room to play. As a matter of fact the older ones, the members of the German Girls Association and the Hitler Youth were indoctrinated by the organisation's leadership. They considered themselves to be so important and they were so taken with themselves and they exploited the young people, but the young people could not see through this. I remember how they took membership fees and I protested on behalf of the children. I quite openly said, "Now," - this was already during the war - "This is really impossible!" That the children and the women who were left behind during the war and who had to work hard and struggle should have to pay for it as well! On top of all this the leaders had organised wedding presents amongst themselves and then they didn't know how they were going to pay the debt off.

Interviewer: This was the German Girls' Association?

Mrs Künneke: That was the German Girls' Association.

Interviewer: Please tell us all about it.

Mrs Künneke: One of the leaders of the Hitler Youth had married a leader of the German Girls' Association and they had been given large presents and afterwards it was insisted that the young members, the ten to fourteen year olds, should pay their contribution so that the debt could be paid off and I protested very strongly. I heard about it at the school and I said, "This is outrageous," and, "This is not right." Then I was investigated. Before long I had the leaders of the Hitler Youth in my apartment to see me about it. They came one evening by car from Münster and I told them they should refrain from making these trips. I said they could have saved the money for the drive from Münster to Coesfeld and used it to pay off a large portion of the debt and that they should take themselves in hand and not always take money from others and play the big shots. Of course they were angry but they couldn't come up with any arguments in response and they left again and didn't bother me anymore. Then the "Night of Breaking Glass" (raids organised by the Nazis during the night of November 9, 1938, translator) took place in Coesfeld although I didn't witness it first hand. The next morning the children talked about it at school. After work I went into town and I wanted to eat at a restaurant and I took a detour across the street where Jewish people lived. There I saw a terrified Jewish man with Jewish children standing at the vandalised doorway to his house and I saw our German children throwing stones and I was horrified. At first I cleaned up the area and I told them, "One doesn't throw stones at people," and "One doesn't attack people so violently," and "I will be coming past here again today, so watch out if I see any of you here again." The children left and they had probably learnt from their home environment that it was appropriate to treat other people in this way and they had probably been raised in hatred, otherwise such a thing would not have been possible. I will never forget the faces of those terrified people. I can visualise them even now. That weekend I went to Münster and I went through the city and saw the vandalised shops. It was horrific and I have never understood how people can be so violent. At that stage I didn't know anything about the expulsion of the Jews because I didn't inform myself and I didn't have any brothers who would be able to make me aware of such things through being in touch with events which were happening. It was just horrific.

Interviewer: How was it noticeable when the war began? How was the mood at school?

Mrs Künneke: When the war started it was during the school holidays. At the time I was in Glücksburg and from one day to the next we had to leave the hotel and go home. I came home to Münster and my mother and sister were on vacation in the Harz Mountains and we didn't hear from each other for days. None of us knew where the others were or how the others would get home. The mood of the people wasn't particularly enthusiastic. Partially there was jubilation when we invaded Poland and it was said that the Poles had been the ones to shoot first and again this was hard to imagine. In any case, as I experienced it, the mood was complete chaos and all the people who had been on vacation who had to return didn't know how to because the trains were all being used for the soldiers. The air battles began early on in Münster and there were planes flying overhead which struck fear into people. In 1940 I returned to Münster and was given a position at a secondary school. Soon afterwards I was simply ordered to work in the children's relocation programme. I was in charge of a group of children whom I had never met. I was just assigned the posting without being asked or informed beforehand. I remember I had just been in hospital with a severe case of inflammation of the pelvis and a couple of days after being discharged from the hospital I had to travel to Upper Bavaria and official complaints carried no weight at all. I arrived in Bavaria and didn't know the house at all. I had a taxi bring me there which was still possible at that time and I had a look at the house. A few days later the children arrived accompanied by girls from the German Girls' Association and they stayed on in the house too. I was in charge of thirty-one children.

Interviewer: What sort of building was it?

Mrs Künneke: It was a guest-house. It was called "House in the Sun" and it was a normal guest-house in Upper Bavaria which had been taken over for the children's relocation programme. We hadn't heard anything about the preparations. The children, though, did come with the consent of their parents, who could rest assured that their children had been located in a peaceful environment. They didn't come from Münster, but from the districts surrounding Münster and initially I was surprised at this since they had a more peaceful environment in the surrounding areas anyway. In Münster we went out into the surrounding country in the evening in order to escape the bombing attacks and these children, who actually lived there, were relocated under the children's relocation programme and brought to safety. In any case, I attempted to take the place of their parents and as far as it was possible I organised leisure activities for them. We did not live there as a Hitler Youth group, but rather as mother and child, and they were my children. We had a Belgian girl there who was employed in the kitchen and our Alice was, of course, a young girl and quite keen on the Bavarian boys. One day the doctor asked her, "Alice, I suppose you probably want to marry here in Bavaria?". Alice answered, "No, no German husband. A German man makes too many babies." We asked her how come, and she answered, "Mrs Künneke has thirty-one." So, that was our life there in that house.

Interviewer: How was it actually, were lessons held in this house?

Mrs Künneke: Yes. I had the children from the primary school in the district. They were in the third grade and the older ones were in the sixth and seventh grades and so I had the whole group and they all had to be taught, although we didn't have any books or anything.

Interviewer: Could you repeat that please?

Mrs Künneke: I had to teach the children from the third to the sixth and seventh grade, but we didn't have any text books or anything at our disposal, so the lessons consisted mainly of German, Arithmetic, History, Geography and Natural History. Of course it was natural and very nice to conduct Natural History lessons outside, and the children had a pleasant life there and then in November we returned home.

Interviewer: Which year was that?

Mrs Künneke: That was 1940, and I continued teaching secondary school. I had returned to my old position. Then we got...

Interviewer: Just a moment - how did Münster look at that point?

Mrs Künneke: Münster had suffered various attacks and there were areas and buildings which were destroyed, but the attacks continued and became worse. Above all the air raids increased markedly. In Münster we had an old "Ju" (a military plane of the type Junkers 52) and we called it "Auntie Ju". It made a terrible racket, and whenever planes flew over and the flak had been fired extensively and we suddenly heard the engine sounds of the old "Ju", then we were pleased, because the planes stopped flying over. The enemy probably took it for some deadly machine and didn't know what it was. During the day we often had to go into an air raid shelter which repeatedly interrupted the lessons. As the air raids intensified three of us from here in Münster were again just posted without warning to Reit in Winkl. We weren't asked, either. At the time I worked occasionally at the Historic Commission on the Westphalian City Atlas project and from there a protest was lodged because they would have liked to keep me working there in my free time. The Head of Archives said, "It is better to let her go now, otherwise soon she might be posted to Poland." And he said to me that this would be the better alternative and anyway, we didn't have a choice. So then we returned to Upper Bavaria and to Reit im Winkl and there we initially had three camps.

Interviewer: We shouldn't really use the word "Lager" - camps.

Mrs Künneke: Yes, they were called that. Accommodation was provided in hotels. Two hotels down in the village were used and I was put in the "Kaiserblick" which was the private sanatorium of a doctor who had been called up for military service but returned shortly afterwards due to a heart condition and he was in charge of our "lager", and yes, that was all.

Interviewer: Did the children arrive back later?

Mrs Künneke: The children arrived back a couple of days later.

Interviewer: Wait, we mustn't talk over the top of each other.

Mrs Künneke: Oh, I see.

Mrs Künneke: Yes, the children returned a few days later which meant that we could make ourselves comfortable in our house first, and the children came here from grammar schools and high schools in Münster. We were there for some time, and then all the schools in Münster were moved down there to Upper Bavaria and we conducted lessons there. We were once again under the jurisdiction of Munich and above all it was a department in the Ministry which was controlled by the Nazi party, but I can't recall the name of this department.

Interviewer: At this point it is possibly important to know whether during this period the children expressed any fear regarding the bombing raids and their family situation. Could you tell us a little about that?

Mrs Künneke: Oh, yes. The children talked a lot and we often discussed the bombing raids. Every time something happened we were extremely concerned about the family members. When the fathers were on leave from the war the children were permitted to return home to be with their parents for a short while, or else the parents came down to Reit im Winkl. We were always very anxious about the family members and I tried to offer comfort to the children and make the separation easier. I have often heard back that I managed to do this so that the children didn't feel they were just shipped off somewhere and I also... Politics was supposed to be a part of camp life and we were expected to celebrate the victories and so on. I never took part in this and thank goodness the children weren't aware of this side of things, although they were also looked after by the German Girls' Association. It was a constant battle with them to avoid turning the whole thing into a German Girls' Association camp, although in time they were quite reasonable about it. I was with the children day and night and I always stuck with them.

Interviewer: How did the end of the war change things? Were the children starting to be returned?

Mrs Künneke: I wasn't there anymore when the children were returned.

Interviewer: Perhaps at the end of the war you were...

Mrs Künneke: I didn't witness the end of the war at the children's relocation camp. I had already been given a posting to go elsewhere and I refused to go and then I got permission to go to Biberach an der Riss, to my sister and her husband and my mother, who I had arranged to have stay there. Then I went to stay with them and I taught at a school there and one day I was called to the principal's office and he said to me, "You told me you wanted to stay here. Why are you going to another children's relocation camp?" (It was in Garmisch.) I said, "I don't know anything about it. I have no idea." "How come," he said, "didn't you receive the letter?" I said, "No, I have permission from Münster to teach here in Biberach." The principal said, "If you didn't receive the letter then I didn't receive mine, either." Then he tore the letter up and I stayed in Biberach and I was there when the war ended. Afterwards I heard that some of the children were brought back here to Münster in small groups and in 1946 after the war was over I made my way back to Münster. The trip took three days. I don't like to think about this terrible time and all the things we witnessed on the way before arriving back here in Münster. Then I fronted up for work again. In the long run we came back and I had to return. I returned to a completely destroyed city. Everything was in ruins. The building we had lived in was completely destroyed and I got in through holes in the basement and in our basement room I couldn't find the things we had stored there. It had all been stolen and the rats were running around. Because I didn't have any accommodation I had even planned, if necessary, to stay in the basement myself, but luckily some friends from Nottuln took me in. Each day after work I had to make my own way from Münster to Nottuln and I travelled on a worker's bus. A bus is too good a name - it was a modified truck -and I had sneak on to it, but the workers whom I knew from my earlier days in Nottuln were very kind and helped to me sneak on and then they hid me. The general situation was awful and often in the evening going past the ruined city with the moonlight shining through the holes in the ruins was simply terrible, and one just did not know what to do.