Subject: Hermann Leifker

born: June 27, 1912

Medical Orderly

Interviewer: Franjo Hülck

Mr Leifker: My name is Hermann Leifker and I was born on June 27, 1912 in Rheine, North Rhine-Westphalia. I have been a catholic priest since 1936 and at the beginning of the war I was chaplain in Westkirchen, in the district of Warendorf. Like most catholics, I did not vote for Hitler in 1932, but the situation was so catastrophic that some said, "Things must change," and Adolf promised, "I will create jobs." Some were prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, and thought he should be given the chance to try, irrespective of their Christian attitude. Maybe he could try his hand at it and change things. I think many voted out of a kind of desperation. At a relative's funeral in 1932 there were heated discussions for and against at the dinner table. I still remember one relative from Borghorst who was totally opposed to Hitler. The other relatives were farmers from Emsbüren and things were not going well for them. "Maybe he will help us," they said, but the discussion was not resolved. The two sides remained resolute. But I witnessed all this and I was the same. I said, "He must not be elected under any circumstances." Then came the end of 1933 and in January, on the 13th, I was in bed with influenza in the theological seminary and someone from my course knocked on my door in the evening and said, "Adolf Hitler is the Chancellor." I said, "Oh Lord, oh Lord, Adolf Hitler as Chancellor. What on earth will happen now?" Silently we hoped that he would find it too much, like the other government - initially riding high and then right down in a trough again. That is what we silently hoped, but then we noticed that Hitler did have many followers, after all, above all due to his promise to create jobs. One has to imagine the situation with no jobs and no prospects and things just getting worse. Then in March came the big promise, "I, Hitler, will work together with the catholic and the protestant church. I will not do anything against the church." Some people breathed easier after that and hoped for the best and the bishops had to lift their ban because Adolf Hitler had solemnly sworn, "I will not undertake anything against the church." They had to lift their ban on voting for Hitler and he was not elected with a majority, but with a strong minority and then there was the church service in March, on the 21st I think, in the Garrison Church in Potsdam and so this is how it all happened. The following month brought the concordat (concordat concluded between the Apostolic See and national socialist Germany on July 20, 1933 which regulated important issues such as the legal status of the clergy, appointment to ecclesiastical functions, legal framework of theology departments and confessional schools; in order to achieve a propagandistic success Hitler granted the catholic church far-reaching concessions, translator) It all happened so quickly and it was so favourable, much more so than the former one with the Prussian government. We agreed to it, even though one may have had private misgivings. I didn't vote for him, as I said, and most catholics didn't either, but because they were unemployed and said, "This has been promised, maybe it will help", they may have voted for him in the end. In this way he didn't get in with a majority but with a strong minority, and this meant that in fact legally he was able to form a government.

Interviewer: How did things continue for you personally?

Mr Leifker: For me?

Interviewer: Yes.

Mr Leifker: Everything went on as before. I was a student and everything remained as it had been before. We theologians stuck together, as I said before, and we could talk freely amongst ourselves and not a word of it was repeated elsewhere. We disapproved, but everything continued fairly peacefully.

Interviewer: Then you were ordained as a priest.

Mr Leifker: Yes, that was in November or December of 1933. It was absolutely clear by then that among us there was opposition to anti Jewish and anti church sentiments. Cardinal Faulhaber held four great sermons in Munich which caused quite a stir, three opposing anti Semitism and one opposing the - how shall I put it - opposing the "Teutonic" spirit.

Interviewer: Or do you mean opposing nationalism?

Mr Leifker: Yes, opposing Pan-Germanism.

Interviewer: Yes.

Mr Leifker: Yes, the way the Nazis understood it. It was already clear in the autumn that they were... Well, in summer, in August, when Klemens August, (Count of Galen, renowned for his resistance to national socialism, translator) was ordained as bishop in Münster I attended the consecration service and the Nazi formations were present in their uniforms to demonstrate the fact that they were not anti church and that they were supportive and co-operative.

Interviewer: That is part of the big picture, but what about the smaller picture? What about your own personal story?

Mr Leifker: Personal?

Interviewer: Yes, how did things develop for you? You were ordained as a priest, weren't you?

Mr Leifker: Yes, I was. While I was studying I didn't have any problems with the Nazis. I spent one semester in Innsbruck and there we could demonstrate against the Nazis, but otherwise I didn't have any problems. In my home town I was free to hold my first mass as a newly ordained priest. There was still freedom and no national flag which had to be displayed or anything. But later, when I was priest this freedom became more and more infringed upon. What can I tell you about that?

Interviewer: I realise it is difficult. How did everyday life continue?

Mr Leifker: In my first position as a chaplain I encountered problems. A teacher at the school caused difficulties. Sometimes at the pulpit I spoke very frankly and then I received a letter from this teacher. The parish priest did not dare to, but I just did it, but on the other hand, I knew how far I could go. Then things became steadily worse and in 1939, no, it was 194, by becoming a soldier I got away from it all. On January 6, 1941 I got away from the whole Nazi mess and my time in the army was not a Nazi period, nor was there a Nazi atmosphere there.

Interviewer: Tell us about the army years.

Mr Leifker: The army years... Yes, well, I was called up on January 6, 1941 in Münster to the 6th Medical Orderly Troop in Iserlohn and I was trained there and had a three month recruitment period followed by setting up the field unit casualty transport section "Motz 706" in Soest. From there we moved out after two months. We had no indication of where to. We went to the next distribution point where the commanding officer was given orders and then on to the next point. In this way we went as far as Szcecin to get our next orders. Then we were sent on board a ship and we wondered, "Where to now?" We had no idea and then we were taken as far as Finland. Suddenly the order came. "Get ready, we are leaving the ship." "Where are we going? There is nothing in Finland. It is peaceful there." "You're going through Finland via Narvik and crossing Sweden." We were put up in a barracks there which was a school directly on the border of Finland. The river formed the border between the towns Haparanda and Tornio and we didn't really know what we were doing there. We did our exercises just like in the barracks and then came Sunday, June 22. In the morning there was a radio announcement, "We have gone into battle against Russia." It was June 22, 1941 and there we were and we didn't know what we were supposed to do. A couple of days later we were transferred to the Russian border. There was fighting in Versalla and many were wounded or dead and we set up a central gathering point for the wounded in Kemijärvi and gathered them there. The severely wounded were taken from there to Kemi to the military hospital. The others were looked after by us for a while and those who were not severely wounded were then also sent to a military hospital. We had emergency transport and we brought them in for a few hours and attended to them and then they were sent on. That was our job up until the campaign in Salla in the central part of Finland came to a standstill. Then we set up gathering points for the wounded again and nothing happened.

Interviewer: Did the number of wounded increase after some time?

Mr Leifker: Excuse me?

Interviewer: Did the number of wounded soldiers increase with the battles?

Mr Leifker: Yes, during the fighting in Salla they clearly increased. Afterwards it wasn't so bad because it became positional warfare. They were attended to at the field ambulance points and then sent to either the provisional military hospital nearby or to a military hospital back home in Germany. For the military hospital they had to go to Oulu or by train through Sweden to Germany. Then in November of 1941 I was transferred to central Finland from where we were in Lapland. There was a Finnish military hospital and we had a military action at the Swir, which in Finnish is called Süverie and is in the south of Finland. Then the campaign was over and the military hospital in Jeveskulä was superfluous and I returned to Lapland. The commander of the German transport section was from Münster, from Nordstrasse and his name was Dr Wilhelm Hinsen. He was the medical colonel. And so I returned to Lapland and attended the wounded, which meant I was in a Finnish military hospital and worked with Finns. We had German soldiers lying there and I was working in administration with papers and taking personal details. I was able to hold services again on Sundays for the catholics who had expressly wished this. The masses were held in the gymnasium of a high school. After nine months we went back to Lapland and then for all intents and purposes nothing more happened. There were the wounded who were brought into the field ambulance centres and so on but I had already been transferred to central Finland to an administrative post within the staff where it was only a paper war.

Interviewer: And your actual profession of priest was not in demand at all?

Mr Leifker: Not at all. It was even officially prohibited. We were banned from holding army church services.

Interviewer: I thought there were military chaplains.

Mr Leifker: The official ones were the military chaplains. We weren't employed as chaplains. We were soldiers, lance corporals, sub officers, working as ordinary soldiers, although in a medical capacity, as medical orderlies who were permitted to wear the first aid insignia. But it didn't have anything to do with religion, in fact nothing at all, because it was not permitted. We did hold mass on Sunday afternoons with those of our comrades who wanted to come and often when I was on telephone standby at night I held mass between two and three am. I had a mass pouch with everything I needed in it on my desk and so at night when I was on watch...

Interviewer: Stop for a moment please.

Mr Leifker: ...and the telephone was to the left on the desk and if the telephone rang during mass I answered it and then afterwards I continued holding mass.

Interviewer: I could ask some questions at this point.

Mr Leifker: That would be better.

Interviewer: Yes.

Mr Leifker: You know what you want.

Interviewer: I would like to know about everyday life. I have to think about what you have said and what could be interesting.

Mr Leifker: Yes.

Interviewer: What about the mood among the wounded or your own mood? How was it at the beginning and how did these feelings change afterwards?

Mr Leifker: As far as the wounded were concerned I had no influence over that. They were brought in, got something to eat and bandages and so on, and this left no time for conversation, because it was only an hour or two or a night at the most. Conversation wasn't possible due to time constraints...

Interviewer: Yes.

Mr Leifker: It was a question of time.

Interviewer: And as far as your unit was concerned the Russian campaign started in 1941.

Mr Leifker: Yes.

Interviewer: How did the mood evolve in your unit?

Mr Leifker: The mood - one has to... We couldn't change anything. We could curse as much as we liked, but it didn't help. If you said anything, then you would get involved and you would be shot.

Interviewer: Excuse me?

Mr Leifker: Yes, of course, because of disobedience. I dealt with ones like that. I always said to them, "Mate, hold your tongue when you don't have to talk and when you do have to talk, then you mustn't remain silent, but it's not necessary to parade the fact that you are opposed to Hitler." That's how it was amongst us.

Interviewer: Can you explain why this was the case? Was there anxiety about what was going to happen?

Mr Leifker: Yes. It wouldn't help because as an individual you don't stand a chance and there wouldn't be any point or cause any change. It is useless to shoot from the hip and then have nothing come of it.

Interviewer: And there was no thought of creating some kind of resistance movement?

Mr Leifker: It wasn't possible, not at all. Amongst ourselves we so often stood together and ate together and cursed about it all and mostly it was the catholic theologians who were doing the criticising and of course nothing happened because we all knew each other. My last theologian war comrades died last year. One of them was the first chaplain of Bishop Hengsbach and one was a Franciscan here in Dülmen, and my commander, as I said, came from Münster, from Nordstrasse. We were opposed to it all, and the commander was as well. On Monday after Low Sunday in 1941, no, just a moment, it was 1942, he said, "The war has been lost." That is quite a thing for a major to say, "The war has been lost." He had good connections to the supreme army commandment and he said this to me as we were travelling by train from central Finland to north Finland. He knew exactly who I was and I knew who he was. Officially he was very much the officer - "Report, please" - but privately it was a different matter.

Interviewer: You were saying, I think, that in 1943 there were no battles up where you were and that it had eased off?

Mr Leifker: It was positional warfare.

Interviewer: Yes.

Mr Leifker: We watched what they were doing and they watched what we were doing and there was nothing much happening. Of course there were still some wounded when they had to go on patrol and then things happened. They walked over mines or a shot could be fired. Otherwise it was pretty quiet and then in the autumn of 1944 things escalated up in the northern section. Up north there was fighting against the Russians and many were wounded. It was my job to attend to the wounded and to organise transport to get them out. I had my lists and I could say how many could be taken out, and who could be taken by ship and who could be taken by plane. I asked for a report on the numbers and I told them to send however many over from the military hospital in the field. "Send them over, they're coming tomorrow morning and will be given transport." That was my job for a while during the fighting up north. I was a sub officer at the time although officially it was the job of an officer to sign for that. A sub officer is a nobody. The one who had to sign was an officer, but actually I controlled the whole thing.

Interviewer: How did things develop towards the end of the war?

Mr Leifker: At the end of the war we were back up in the north of Norway and there was nothing much to do. It was boring. Then we were in central Norway and then southern Norway in Oslo and there was nothing to do there and then we had wounded soldiers who needed surgery. I was in the surgical department of the military hospital and then in the second last week before the end the Norwegians rioted, drank and celebrated victory. They had nothing more to fear and they were celebrating victory and then on the Monday, I need to check the date, at just before three o' clock the message came on the radio, "Shortly there will be an important and serious announcement for the German people." Ten minutes later Schwering Kosisich came on the radio and said, "We have a serious and disappointing announcement for the German people. By declaring a ceasefire, Germany has ended the war. In the course of the next day (it was Monday), that is, ending on Tuesday night and beginning at the first stroke of Wednesday at zero hundred hours the weapons will be silent."

Interviewer: How did the soldiers react? Did you feel anything?

Mr Leifker: "Thank goodness, thank goodness the whole mess is coming to an end." Everyone knew it was pointless, no victory.

Interviewer: Did you notice any activity by the Norwegian resistance at all when you were in Norway?

Mr Leifker: I was not aware of the resistance because I was always a long way away from the towns. We were out in the country and I wasn't aware of anything. Only at the end, as I said, eight days beforehand they were already celebrating victory. Apart from this I was not aware of the resistance because I had no contact with the population.

Interviewer: Were you taken prisoner in Norway at the end, or what happened?

Mr Leifker: Yes. Some days later a prisoner of war camp was set up. It was our former accommodation at the time which was then set up as a prisoner of war camp. I was away from my comrades at the time. I had been transferred to staff headquarters and then I returned to the camp by car. We ran the camp ourselves. English soldiers stood in front of the camp and Norwegian soldiers as well, who of course were very poorly trained and very sloppy according to our German standards. Then I was sent to a camp for political prisoners for a while, not because I was of any political persuasion, but because the German prison authorities wanted a catholic priest. I was there for eight days and then it became too dangerous for them to have a priest and they sent me back to my comrades and I was happy to be with them at the camp again. The retreat from Norway began in the autumn of 1945. The soldiers from the French occupied zone were the first, but they didn't get to go home as they had thought. Instead they were sent to French camps and they didn't have a good time of it. The French treated them badly. We belonged to the British occupied zone and most were released, but I wasn't. The reason given was, "You are a medical orderly and we need medical orderlies." The other reason was, "You are a priest and we need priests." This went on until on All Saints Day of 1945 I protested. I said, "Either I am a priest, or I have the rank of medical orderly, one or the other. If I have the rank of medical orderly then I demand to be released and if I am to be a priest then I demand it too." Then the day before All Saints Day I was released up there in Norway into an intermediary camp. Then we were put onto a ship which was moored in Neustadt in Holstein and at first we were stuck there. It took one night to get to Münster and then I was released.

Interviewer: There is still the question of the military chaplain.

Mr Leifker: I did not see very many of those. We had one man, an army priest, who was really a wonderful fellow. He treated us as priests, as fellow clergymen, as fellow brothers. I also experienced one who demanded that I stood to attention in front of him as though he were an officer.

Interviewer: They had an officer's ranking, didn't they?

Mr Leifker: Yes, they had the rank of major and we were sergeants or sergeant majors at the most. That was the highest ranking we could have. We had to stand to attention in front of them. That is what I experienced with one of them. He was more of an officer than a clergyman. The others were officers but they were clergymen and it was similar with the military doctors. There were officers, soldiers and there were doctors. For example my commanding officer from Münster was a doctor and later he was a colonel, a real big shot. Then I had another one who was a colonel, but he was a field doctor, or rather chief military doctor, and he was, well, how can I put it, he was a military man and military men were hopeless from a medical point of view, but they were in the military. And from a military point of view we had to overcome the fact that they were hopeless, because we were supposed to be the dummies, although of course we weren't.

Interviewer: Yes, I see. Perhaps you could tell us briefly how it was when you returned to Münster and how life got back to normal, although that is probably an exaggeration since everything was destroyed.

Mr Leifker: I was only in Münster for one night in a barracks there in Grevener Straße, though I can't recall the name of the barracks. I was released the next morning and then I went to my parents' house in Rheine. I was there for a couple of days and then I returned to my post as chaplain in Westkirchen in the district of Warendorf. Within the duties of a clergyman everything returned to normal. Westkirchen had not been affected by the war there and there had been almost no bombing. The normal life of a clergyman continued.