Good morning… Here I am…!

I guess I would probably have to begin by introducing myself. My name is Giulio Cittadini, and I am an Oratorian Father - they call us the "Peace Fathers" here in Brescia. I joined this community immediately after the War, in 1945, and have been a priest since 1950. Considering that 1924 was actually the year in which I was born, I effectively had a personal experience of that very dramatic period characterised by Fascism, Anti-Fascism, Resistance, the Resistance War, and successively the reconstruction period. I think I must… that it would be better if I particularly limited myself to the period that runs from my first experiences of school education, which was Fascist orientated, up till 1945 - up to the end of the war, so to say.

Let's therefore jump to 1924 - obviously, almost everybody knows that the Fascist era began a couple of years before. By this time, whosoever enrolled in a public school became, ipso facto, a member of the Fascist Party because he was then considered to be "a son of the she-wolf"… a or, what was it called… a "Balilla", is that right? Therefore, I for one probably did not become "a son of the she-wolf" since my date of birth… its introduction might have occurred in a successive period. But I remember that in Primary three or Primary four, one had to put on this uniform and become a "Balilla". There was an oath to be taken… an oath… and if you wish, I can still remember it by heart. They actually got us, the little children, to make the following promise: 'I swear to abide by the orders of the Duce, to serve the cause of the Fascist Revolution with all my might and, if necessary, even with my blood.' I will make no comments about this… ten and eleven year olds! It was of course an experience that was made to acquire a joyful note: for example, we were ordered to come to school dressed in uniform on the 21^st of April, because it was the celebration of the birth of Rome! I must say that this Fascist education was able to obtain only partial success, because I then also went to a movement known as the "Peace", where Christian education was provided and whose teachings were obviously not quite compatible to certain principles upheld by Fascist education - such principles as those, for example, that incited us to throw stones at the enemy, whereas the Gospel teachings emphasise that love has no preferences, no choices, and must always be freely given. And therefore this…how can I say it… this "contrast" gradually began to emerge as time went on. This happened especially when, at the beginning of my university studies - that I was in the end unable to finish - I joined the FUCI, which was … which then had its headquarters here within the "Peace" Movement, so to say. FUCI actually stands for, "Federazione Universitari Cattolici Italiani" (Federation of Italian Catholic University Students). It was profoundly anti-Fascist; which wasn’t at all something that was merely superficial – I myself can enlighten you about this… without… simply recounting… by "flashes", like on does in an interview. Fascism was, above all, "an invitation to quit reasoning things out"! There was one person who could thinks things out, was always right, and had full prerogative to decide! It was an appeal to obey this leader and to believe in this leader: obey this leader, stamp out every kind of criticism against this leader – and, as is well known, this eventually took us to the alliance with Nazism, and to war… Here in front of me – I don’t know whether it’s of any interest – is a report that was compiled in 1940, eighteenth year of the Fascist era, by a certain Bozzi – that goes with a with the letter Z… a police report on the anti-Fascist activities of the "Peace". I will read just one sentence which is very indicative. "The "Peace"," it says, "exercises a deleterious influence among the youth, which leads them," – leads the youth – "through a light but able propaganda, to think and to reason against the organisations and directives of the regime". This says quite a lot about Fascism. And what does it actually say in this regard? That Fascism meant "reasoning absolutely according to the directives, without any freedom of thought whatsoever"! – and this certainly was a very clear and strong anti-democratic principle, that could only be neutralised by the principle according to which one must always question his conscience about the things that happen, and exactly how to intervene in such a succession of historical events. The FUCI from a certain moment onwards took… - when Fascism finally fell on the 5^th of July 1943 - a clear position in favour of the Resistance, who were… that was, as a matter of fact, a revolt: which could actually be called a "conscientious objection", of both Italian and European dimension, against… not only the crimes of Nazi-fascism, but generally against that criminal project which Nazi-fascism, particularly in the person of the "Furher", of Adolf Hitler, was preparing with regard to a future world order. Their principles, of course, aspired to the idea of a sovereign and divine race, traceable through the German lineage and… We were actually taught these things in the FUCI, leafing through Hitler’s book, the "Mein Kampf" – which had in fact been translated into Italian, but in a revised edition in which certain pages of the original version were missing!

However, there also was another publication, which quite strangely had escaped Fascist censorship, was a book by Maro Bendiscoli, A great scholar of German culture who has just recently died. "Religious Germany in the days of the Third Reich", was the title of the book, which portrayed a… a sort of anti-Christian, pagan, and racist religion which was obsessed by achieving universal predominance. And this book was in fact able to predict… these things were all contained in this book, given that I still have a copy. It talked about the imminent outbreak of a war… those post eventum prophesies which are very easy to comprehend but quite hard to believe: the kind of "Good Lord, isn’t this what it said" thing!

Consequently we had to take sides, knowing quite well that these historical movements, at a certain point, always ended up either contrasting or supporting each other; in other words, there wasn’t any room for a "half the way in between" stance, and neutrality was practically the equivalent of support…! I think, therefore, that the choice we all made was a coherent, democratic, Christian, and anti-Nazi one. This, however, does not mean that all those who fought on one side or on the other should therefore be considered as people… I don’t know… who therefore would have… I can assure you that many of the youth who were of my same age and fought on the opposite front had a good conscience. The fact that, from an objective point of view, still remains in fact is that in front of a character like Adolf Hitler, the choice was either to offer one’s support or have oneself arrested. And this was the main issue which first pushed me to active participation here in Brescia, with the Green Flames who were then reorganising themselves around the great figure of Astolfo Lunardi, who was one of the makers of the Resistance, of Andrea Trebeschi, who fell at Mauthausen – you can see their photographs right behind me. After that I went through a very tough period which culminated in my finally having had to give in to the call to arms. Nevertheless, after my three month long failure to report for military service, I was taken to Valle D’Aosta, where I readily got myself accused, according to the canons of the Fascist regime, of "armed desertion and crossing over to the enemy’s side within an operation area"! I had finally reached the partisan formation in Valle D’Aosta; and precisely… in the Saint Posce valley, from where we then passed on to the Daiasc valley, and so forth. At the end, the partisan adventure came to its conclusion with the occupation of Ivrea, which, quite fortunately, was carried out without any bloodshed: it had in fact been possible to reach an understanding with the adversaries, and especially with the German troops who in the meantime had fallen back around this town in large numbers: there was actually an entire armoured division of the Wehrmacht there!

So, I don’t know… would you like to ask me some questions?

It's really a sort of schizophrenia, right? As a matter of fact the Fascist attempt to monopolise education in Italy never came to anything only due to the determination of the Catholic Church in spreading the fundamental values of the Gospel among the youth, and that's it! As it were, the young of that period were therefore inevitably caught up in a conflict of values; that perhaps was not quite visible, but yet characterised by those contradictions and ambiguities which were a bit latent in each one of them. And obviously this was bound to emerge at a certain point, since one either had to believe in the freedom of thought - that is to say, believing in what Paul says, "Where there is the Spirit, there is liberty," which actually was one of the phrases that inspired our Resistance - or else one could give this moment of absolute obedience to a leader who did the thinking and issued orders to the others about what they simply have to execute. One could either chose to believe in certain values of universality such as the respect for others, or one could instead believe in the predominance of a single race! And as a matter of fact, Nazism was in itself quite full of contradictions; otherwise how could it have ever imagined making universal a message that… based on the absolute affirmation that it was a single race which had to dominate the others, that it had to emerge well above the universal human and planetary context. Nazism was an ideology that was at the service of a particular group, a race, and certainly not… Now, one would been able to keep all these contradictions to himself for a period; but at one point, they would surely have to emerge; and when one discovers that he has the capacity and enough courage to make a choice, then comes the moment in which one chooses to finally liberate himself from this legacy that… that… that he realises to be something quite unbearable. Really… I recently participated in a meeting of my brigade, which was the 76^th Garibaldi Brigade in Val D’Aosta and on the road leading to Ivrea, and even this time a journalist approached me with this question: "But how do you conciliate your presence in the Garibaldi Brigade with the choice that you made later on to… to adhere to a… religious reality as… an Oratorian?" Well, they did conciliate… In my opinion I was really dealing with two distinctly Christian choices, for I never could have taken sides with… with a certain person, with a reality represented by a being who was truly a… threat to human dignity as a whole; just in the same way as I entered into a… into a religious congregation that serves the human being and those very values that exalt the person. I don’t see any inconsistency in this, or rather, exactly… it was exactly this process of "interior liberation" which made us even…

Allow me also to say that I am quite happy about this interview, because generally we the elderly folk… well, when we start talking about ourselves, about the experiences we had to go through, we very often get the impression of obtaining very little interest, we seem to get people a little bit bored. However, when one resets his mind on… one sets his mind on certain presuppositions of the past, he then discovers that such a past could very easily be the present, as well as the future! And this really is the fact that most youth would seem to be quite aware of; even after the "Black Shirts", the "Brown Shirts", and so on. Indeed, if we are not careful enough we might still very easily slide back into more or less masked, or more or less open, forms of Fascism; for wherever there exists a despotic leader who simply demands protection and obedience, there certainly must be something lying hidden that represents a menace to the human race in its essence.

Let me come back to say that in my brigade, which is the Garibaldi Brigade, I have always behaved as a catholic: I would wear, on the beret that I still conserve, the "Tri-colour" of the FUCI. Indeed, I found a very strong representation of Catholics out there! I had this very dear friends belonging the Catholic Action of Pavia, as well as one from Cremona, who later lost their lives. There was also one from Bergamo, who is still alive, and another one from Verona. Actually only a few of us were able to survive. From among those of us who went away… We had met in Val D’Aosta - three, four Brescians and myself - and of the four, I am the only one who returned home. It isn't a joke at all the price we had to pay by shedding our own blood for… And yet even though we were fundamentally in a Communist brigade they always had a great respect for my religion, which was the force which, in that precise moment, inspired me to fight by their side. I believe that every kind of totalitarianism, and obviously even the Stalinist one, is always on the same wave length of those who in those day… We fought against the Nazi-Fascism that was existing in Italy, because by then it was only with arms that we could fight them. But instead we fought Communist totalitarianism democratically, with the ballot; and, thank God, we did succeed in sparing Italy from that experience which today can finally be considered as being negative - and you can bet I feel quite irritated nowadays when I hear someone say, "Communist", simply because there happens to be a greater sensibility towards social problems, problems faced by people who are victims of exclusion, and which ultimately stimulated Italy into the construction of a welfare state that each one of us must learn to defend, and that is it.

Cardinal Bevilacqua was a person who readily understood what Fascism really was right from the beginning, and especially in it’s theoretical groundwork, that is. And he took an open anti-Fascist stance which, later on, would somehow help to constitute the framework of that idealistic political perspective represented by the "Haven of Peace"; and which, in its turn, is renown for its historic coherence!

He was forced to… Once our house was actually invaded by the anti-Fasc… by the Fascist squads who were looking for Bevilacqua in order to… nobody knows for what reason… perhaps simply to beat him up, who knows? Or "give him a sound treat", kill him, no one could say. Anyhow, in the precise moment in which they were searching for him he happened to be in the church, and was actually being held back by a confrere since he seriously intended to confront them. Well, afterwards he had to spend some years, in exile, as one would say. It really wasn't much of an exile though, for he was in Rome, where he actually found his friend Montini, who would later become a cardinal… a Pope. And it is in fact Gian Battista Montini who will, successively upon becoming Pope… consecrate Giulio Bevilacqua a cardinal.

He always had a clear… thoroughly unequivocal anti-Fascist attitude in the name of freedom of the human conscience. There is a famous phrase of his, that was written during a controversy with the local Fascists by a certain Giarratana, which says, "Remember that ideas are valuable not according to what they are able to deliver, but according to what they cost". And this is one phrase that has remained famous for its incisiveness, but that also effectively seeks to understand the problem right from its very roots. It is therefore wrong for man to help himself to an idea in order to dominate others, but, quite on the contrary, man must make use of an idea only when he believes that such idea could be of help to mankind in its growth, and respectful to his human dignity.

Bevilacqua was my novice master, as well as my superior; he was… to some extent we owe him this… After him, that is to say… after him, I ought to remember the figure of Father Carlo Manziana. When I talked about the FUCI, he actually was the spiritual advisor of this FUCI group to which also Franco Salvi belonged. I don’t know… there were many others: Padrini, who was also the superior of Teresio Livelli; the famous "rebel for love," with that very beautiful prayer of his, known as "the prayer of the rebel for love", in which the resistance is described as a conscientious objection against… the Nazi-Fascist regime. For being the spiritual counsellor to the FUCI, Menziana was imprisoned… and in the end sent to the concentration camp of Dachau… One would say that he came out almost by miracle, because… Behind me you can see the Rinaldini brothers… in the photograph… Of the two brothers, Rinaldini Emiliano is the one who is famous for the "blood seal"; and the other, of lesser fame is… Federico Rinaldini. The first of the two brothers, that is to say Emiliano, was actually executed here in the Brescian valleys, and… this then came to be known as "the blood seal", due to the fact that a copy of "The Imitation of Christ" which he was carrying under his coat was found drenched with his blood. The second of the brothers instead died, just like Andrea Trebeschi, in the concentration camp of Mautthausen.

When I was finally able to reach the partisan Formation in Val… Val Di Saint Porsce, which is the first valley on the right from… No, it was the last one, since valleys are always measured starting from the font; the last valley on the right before Ivrea Della Dora - I had in fact set out from the fort of Bar… Then they asked me what was… "With what battle name would you like to be called?" Well, thinking of my FUCI counsellor, Manziana, who was at Dachua at that moment, I said, 'I choose the name "Manzio".' And my partisan battle name is therefore "Manzio", as simple as that, ha-ha…

Do you mean the partisans?

First of all, I would like to stop for a while on the risks: the risk… I actually took advantage - and this would really tend to make the tale longer - I have was very… how can I put it… I took advantage of an opportunity that, I don't know, chanced to come my way, in order to go across the Dora Bridge which separated the fort of Bar… from this valley. It was a double risk: firstly, the danger of being taken prisoner since I was on my way to join the partisans, and secondly, the risk, which occurred to me only later, of not finding the partisans altogether. As a matter of fact I had just been told, "they are out there!" and had simply placed my trust in this. And luckily for me I did find them, but it could just as well have been a one way journey for me if at all they had not been there, right!

The partisans… I mentioned the brigade earlier on. The brigade was composed of… detachments. A detachment is the basic unit of a Garibaldi brig… of a Partisan brigade, and numbers twenty, twenty-five or thirty men at the most. Such a small number made it easy for them to lodge in a "malga" (hut on the Alps) or in a stable; and therefore gave then a greater possibility of being… of tactical mobility - that's it, right? - in order to enable them to slip away whenever the found themselves surrounded by the enemy; to move from one "malga" to another, and therefore have an autonomous life! The brigade therefore had… was… was an entity that always disseminated itself all over a given territory - but no one ever able to tell exactly where one detachment or the other were actually deployed, so to say. And we really had to cope with a great deal of mopping-up operations, and especially in the month of February. There was particularly one winter which I still remember… It was terribly cold, and it had snowed quite a lot. The enormous quantity of snow had made things even more difficult for us, because then there wasn't really much we could do to avoid leaving traces of our movements. I recall how we were then taught to place our foot exactly there where there was… on the same mark left by the colleague in front of us, such that… at least not to give an indication of how many we were… shrewdness of the kind! I would say that we actually had to face such mopping-up operations continuously; and in spite of the fact that they would always say, "Damnation! These partisans are always on the run!" Indeed, thanks a million! When you are equipped with a magazine that can load only up to six bullets, and you don’t have factories that …from which to refurnish yourself, knowing very well that when they are finished… in a nutshell you really have to use them as sparingly as you can. That is why it was not until towards the end that we were able to launch our offensive aiming at the …the liberation of Ivrea.

We entered Ivrea on the 3^rd of May… not the 25^th of Aprile, the 3^rd of May, because… an entire armoured division of the "Wehrmacht" had fallen back into the area and was occupying the town. There must have been someone, probably the bishop; someone I don’t know, who… who tried to carry out negotiations in order to avoid a carnage since we wanted to enter, whereas the inhabitants of the town obviously wanted to be assured about their safety. At one point, a fairly complex accord was reached: we were allowed to go in, but the German division would occupy only the North and the South of the town… we would therefore be taken in between, just like a sandwich! Then we entered, accompanied by the exultation of the... of the inhabitants who… It was a really fantastic day, a very happy day: the 3^rd of May, that is to say. It should be remembered that the war… ended five days later; precisely on the 8^th of May 1945.

I will even say more to underline this relationship between... in my brigade… the 76th Garibaldi, that lived a tragic moment when its entire command fell. If I remember well enough, on the 30^th January of 1945, a partisan called Ginas, which actually was his battle name, died. This was before I myself entered – I entered in the first days of September. Ginas died in July, killed by shrapnel from a grenade. The real name of the person I am referring to was Gino Pistoni, from Ivrea – who is now in the process of being beatified – a young man of 21 years, about 20, and an accountant like me. He was even strong hearted enough to pull out a white paper bag from his rucksack, in which he had wrapped his bread, emptied it, and with his blood, with a little branch… He had… He had been hit by… by a shrapnel which had slashed a vein… the femoral artery. In short, he dipped the branch in his own blood and on this paper bag jotted exactly these words: "I offer my life 4 the Italian AC W Christ the King." This is what was narrated to me by the Com… let’s say the Communists, the… the companions in arms of this... of this brigade of mine, which among other things had a detachment named after Don Minzoni. Don Minzoni was a priest who had been assassinated by the Fascists several years earlier; he had in fact played an important role of Resistance to Fascism in its early stages. There are still streets named after him, one of them can be found in the pre-alpine village, for example… And, with no clemency towards any form of Totalitarianism whatsoever, because I agree with what I think Churchill must have once said: "The worst among Democracies is still better than any Totalitarianism". For Democracy means participation; it means criticism and reasoning capacity. Instead when a leader takes over, extends his personal prerogative over the right to think, and therefore makes it his own monopoly, one simply has to obey and if… Christianity was actually born in the form of a conscientious objection against the claims of a political power that was seeking to make itself something divine. Since for the Gospel… power is neither demonical nor divine, but does become demonical when it claims to be divine, that is the point.

No… I did not… the only rank I was able to achieve, and even this was though voting, was that of "Deputy Detachment War Commissioner": practically, I was more or less like a little second lieutenant! We simply knew each other by our battle names. We treated each other as peers, and even the leaders were "down to earth" people with whom we discussed, we organised, we… we were really a compact group… I recall this period with… I mean to say with deep affection, even from a purely human point of view. The following could be a symbolic episode: I remember that at one time, it must have been either in March or April, when we had already started preparing for the final attack. The detachment was lying in wait along a street in which… in which it was hoped some formation… some Nazi-Fascist formation would probably pass. In Borgo Franco di Ivrea, there was even a SS group composed by Russians who had crossed over… as a matter of fact… they were... used to obeying: to them it did not really matter whatever leader it was, they simply obey… the weak point of Totalitarianism is this faith in obedience. An obedient person could as well obey Tom in the same way as Harry, so to say… As it were, we were really out looking for trouble, as one might say. At one point, we caught sight of a black figure that was advancing toward us from the town – I don’t quite remember which town it was that was nearby – and it continued to come ahead. It turned out to be a priest in his frock, and he was probably rather scared too, poor thing! Coming to us he said: "Look, the Germans have sent me to tell you that if you don’t go away from here, they will be forced to shell the whole town".

We conferred among ourselves and then decided to leave: in short, I guess this was the only responsible way in which we could act.

Mara, do you have any questions?

Well, even the return back home itself was a little bit adventurous, and to some extent due to my own irresponsibility. Because after the occupation of Ivrea I said to myself: "Well, why not just make a quick visit back home." But, leaving Ivrea for Brescia just like that… I forgot to ask for permission… I was behaving like someone who at a certain point decides that the game is over and therefore feels free to do whatever he likes. Only that on my way back, I was forced to pass… Earlier on I made a hint about those two groups, right? About being under siege! Well, I had to walk back through an encampment full of trucks… which is to say… the demarcation established by one of those famous German brigades, right? Damnation, how could one do such a thing? All the Germans were right there, and I myself was wearing my partisan uniform. I had this belt with "Gott mit uns" which I taken from a German prisoner on, and, if I am not mistaken, a machine-pistol as well: to make it brief, I really couldn't have been more provocative! At one point as I was passing I heard a voice from a window, "Ah, ein bandit, ha-ha-ha!" In short, I had never been so bloody close to losing my life as on this occasion… As a matter of fact, even more here than… right here where the war was actually over than on previous occasions, see what I mean?

Afterwards, as we were on our way back home; well, there of course was nothing else but good news; news… well, it really wasn't always that good… The first bad news was that Emiliano Rinaldini had been shot, and that Federico was dead! We were practically able to count our dead only as we were returning home! But, sure, it indeed was a moment of… of… And this… I believe it is really true when people say that the Italian Republic was actually born out of the Resistance - even though it is quite obvious that had it not been for the Allies we never would have reached our goal of obtaining liberty and freedom. But from the Resistance a great desire to recommence was actually able to emerge, the desire to start everything afresh: create an Italy, as Teresio Livelli puts it - he in fact uses two very strong adjectives… let's see… "A generous and stern Italy." He adds "stern", even if I am really not that sure whether this severity by itself could actually be considered as a virtue. Well, Italy was effectively born out of the Resistance!

What I am saying might actually seem to be trivial, plaintive, and so forth; but it often necessary to make very clear distinctions, because one cannot talk about the youth only in general sense of the term since there actually are different categories of young people. There are these wonderful youth; that type we find in volunteer associations, for example, who according to us… they are even able to comfort us since they tell us, "Truly, you have been able to leave something behind even for us, something,…" and at times they even go as far as preceding us in the affirmation of certain attitudes of… Then of course there are those who throw away their lives by spending their time in discotheques, becoming drug-addicts, always running after fun or such kind of things; as well as those who are of no use to anybody, those who think only of their own interests, for example. Even the University, what has it become? The University, in most cases has become… At first there was this great moment of protest, and so on; and which naturally had both positive and negative aspects. But after the protests, what now remains is nothing but hordes of… I don’t know… of hopeless undergraduates… characterised by a complete lack of interest; everyone thinks exclusively about themselves, about carrying home their degree and their individual "piece of paper", and only looking after what is but their own personal interest… And this, at times really saddens us, and simply because… it doesn’t correspond at all to… to that stimulus which propped us into… into making a choice that in whatever case was anyway still a risky one. I of course cannot deny the fact that I deserted as a result of the risk that existed from either side, but I still can recall the thought that flooded my mind that particular evening, the very first night that I spent with my partisan formation… Now, let me see, where was it that I slept that night? Oh, it was in a stable filled with dry leaves; under a blanket that I had been given… And this then is what I thought: "Definitely, my life isn't any safer her life than in some other place, but if this should be where I will meet my end, then I am sure I will have died on the right side!" And therefore, as far as I am concerned, this is what I would say… Look, life is a… life is something of such an extraordinary value, and life's worth is measured by what one is able to give; if one has given a lot in life, then he has had a beautiful life, that is it! This is what they are sometimes able to make us doubt - and I repeat, not just everybody, because there are categories of youth that are simply marvellous!

No…! Thank you for listening to me since I rarely talk about these things - and I would say almost never in such an exhaustive way. I have often written something here and there, but… and… However, about the figures of Gino Pistoni, Emiliano Rinaldini, and so on; I must say have felt them to be always near because they are really an emblem of a an entire world that is moving in the right direction.

And my thanks to you.

This is the beret, here. Normally we would pin up a star on it - not a red one though, but a white, red and green star. I myself instead decided to attach this FUCI medal in its place, and when they saw it they asked me, "Well, why aren't you wearing the star?" But as you can see for yourself, the white, red and green is there too; there is actually a small Tri-colour…"

This here is the beret which I wore from a certain point onwards, and is therefore almost 60 years - almost… No… let's say, fifty… 1945… that is, more than fifty-five years of existence, in short, right? That's it…! fifty-five! Alongside this medal on which… you can see there is… there is an inscription, "FSP"; that stands for "Fede Senza Patria" (Faith Beyond Every Frontier), Association of Italian… Catholic University students, that is what! And there was this little "Tri-colour" which, I repeat, took the place of the… there was… there was supposed to be a star, and not red one… but white, red and green! Ours was a relatively tolerant brigade, and so I was allowed to… For me, it was something of very great value, for it wasn't only a visible sign of the choice I had made, but also the demonstration that I was actually fighting in the name of that Christian choice I had matured during my years in the FUCI and under the guidance of Father Carlo Manziana, who later died as bishop of Crema, right? What you see here instead is the rank: "Detachment Deputy War Commissioner!" Well, this isn't really where they would have to go, since they are normally meant to be worn on the jacket; but unfortunately I threw mine away, and therefore decided to simply remove the rank and place it here! And this one here is precisely the "Distinguished Service Cross", obtained by merit… a Military Cross for wartime merits, and which, as a matter of fact, was awarded to all partisans.

I am really sorry, but for some time I had also kept the German belt as a trophy; I am talking about the buckle with "Gott mit uns"…!

Well, not really: in fact, one day the daughter of one of my former companions in arms who has died came to see me from... from Cremona... died afterwards from some illness, I mean to say successively. And I…well… I gave it to her as a present, to this… this lady who was already married, in memory of her father. "Gott mit uns" actually means "God is with us...!" This, er,... this sort of blasphemy! But of course we must learn to distinguish even amongst the Germans, because it was one thing belonging to the SS and another thing altogether belonging to the "Wehrmacht". The "Wehrmacht", in fact, suffered a lot under Hitler, and even in Germany there actually were remarkable episodes of rebellion; the "White Rose", for instance is very much re-evaluated today… Are you filming even what I am saying now?

Yes, certainly.

Well, a publication just recently released here in Italy underlines the de-campaigning activities carried out by the "White Rose" through the leaflets it sent out. The second leaflet it was able to dispatch, for example, contains a phrase that is really worthy of reflecting over: Hitler… It actually refers to a phrase taken from Hitler's "Mein Kampf" - "My Battle", that is to say… And the leaflet therefore textually comments: "It is incredible how many lies one has to tell to a people just in order to wield power over them!"

Do I have to wear it?

Ha-ha… Oh, I did wear it recently at that gathering I told you about… It fits on rather tightly on me now because… Well, how do I look? Ha-ha-ha…!

"Manzio."

I didn't observe that medal over there well enough…

Well, it is the Military Cross for wartime merits, you know…

… This side of the valley, we had to climb again onto the other side because they were trying to surround us… You could see people collapsing onto the ground… They couldn't walk any more… What numberless risks…! How filthy we all were…! I kept a shirt on, the only woollen garment that I had. A shirt, and just the same shirt for nine months on end; without ever changing it… ha-ha-ha… infested with lice it was, right…?