This is going to be a narration of your own personal experience, on the basis of the things that occurred to you in the course of the Second World War, or, said in other terms, during the years in which the Second World War took place. However, another interesting aspect could also be the pre-war years - which is to say, as long as you too would find them interesting. This means, I don't know, the years spent under the Fascist regime, the outbreak of the war, the post-war period, and then, slowly by slowly… if you feel you need to be guided by a few questions… well, we could perhaps start by providing an outline of your life and… to be precise, beginning from the moment… in what was the wartime Italy of the time, or even before this if…

My life is very much like it was before… for example, I used to work at the "Piaggio", with the Air Force, at Final Marina, and even then… As I was saying before, I met this friend of mine at Tortona, since I had gone to Finale. Now, at the station of Final Marina there was such an enormous crowd of people…! 'What is going on?' I therefore asked them. A friend of mine walked towards me and said, 'We came to see you for ourselves, since they had claimed you were dead; and we are therefore really happy to have you here with us again.' And, well… so I said, 'Alright then, here I am! It's time to go and look for my parents and see how they are doing. After that we will see what we can do…' Following this, I went to speak with Rossetti who was the chairman of the Communists in Final Marina, and was himself working at the "Piaggio" as head… he worked at the personnel office… And I said to him, 'Hey Rossetti, since I am considering to start working once more, and am badly in need of finding a job, do you think there is anything you can do for me about this?' 'Yes surely, there is certainly work to be done,' he replied, and then continued, 'but nevertheless, I can’t provide you with any guarantee that walking in through the front door would therefore imply not getting thrown out from the window!' … what a way of reasoning…! ‘I am not afraid of anything! I… it’s a right that I have, and I am determined to have it recognised; I want to get back to work!’ I explained. And so I went over to the personnel office of the factory only to claim what was my right… and in the end they could do nothing but recognise it: in fact, I would have had to resume working.

However, only a week later I received a call-up postcard from Savona, from the Command of the Legion, asking me to report to headquarters for orders. It was only later on that they told us this had to do with the decision to select the best elements from among us and use them for creating a personal security unit for Mussolini!

I was beside myself with rage at this point, and this is what I said; ‘I am fed up and won’t take any of your games no more! Of the thousands of promises you have made, not even one has been maintain so far. What is more, you dispatched me to Russia only for having done what was my duty, because you are the very ones…’

As a matter of fact I wasn’t supposed to have gone to Russia - just as my father wouldn’t have had to go to Russia… He should have, would have had to remain behind at the moment of departure. ‘During the journey we will endorse your papers and see to it that you are sent back home,’ they had lied to him, knowing very well what kind of "home" they already had in mind for him… what I mean to say is that…

And so I told them, ‘look… I am truly fed up; and therefore will only accept your offer on conditions that you either grant or allocate me to a position of command; to… to an activity like the one I have carried out up to now' – I was in fact a superintendent! 'But if you are thinking of sending me to Russia,' I went on, 'then you know the answer is "No!" I have simply had enough as far as war is concerned…'

Well, at this point… I had tried to do everything possible, but this hadn't been of any use! Very soon, the mobilisation order from Brescia, instructing me and four others to show up, had arrived… and, as should be quite obvious, it wasn’t at all a matter of whether one was willing or not – refusing to obey would have had the consequence of only making things worse!

And so it came to be that from Brescia we, in the long run, ended up in Salò! From Salò we went to this other place which was in Germany to collect Mussolini and escort him to Gardone… what else could we do? We had to obey orders, and the orders were an exclusive prerogative of the liberators – who were the so… what were they called… those under whose command the municipalities had been placed… damn it…! I am talking about the guys who themselves were components of the liberation committees…the ones who wielded power over everything, so to put it… It was under the explicit orders of this lot that we were forced to proceed and go ahead to Salò; they even went as far as seeing to it that we were tailed…!

Well, so this is where we had ended up. And from here we went on to Germany to pick him up, following his liberation from the Gran Sasso, and together we came back to Italy; we ourselves having to return to Salò, whereas he was taken to the villa that had been requisitioned at Gardone… So, this is what that insecure and stormy period had actually been… As for the rest, there are really a number of things that I could narrate… but… I wouldn’t know what to say… What I actually wanted to let you know is that I still have the pass issued by the American commander so that I would be able to go safely through the partisan check-points on my way here… Then, once I was already here… As I was saying before, I was summoned to the Municipality offices to receive some information, et cetera. And so I said to myself, "OK old boy, let’s see how this going to work out…" After having seriously thought it over and calmed myself down, I said, "I must first be able to understand what the real situation is. I want to obtain the permission to go down to Finale and visit my parents, and to see how they are doing…" and as a matter of fact, I did manage to obtain the permission to go away!

In the meantime this was also the period immediately preceding elections… The whole place was absorbed in the noisy campaigns of the Communists, the Christian-Democrats and the Liberals - and as far as the Liberals of this place were concerned… it was real business… beyond every limit…

Well, I was granted the permission to go to Finale, and it was then that I met this other friend of mine… We therefore travelled together, and were still together when we arrived in Finale. I hadn’t quite expected the kind of reception I was given; for what I received was a very warm welcome…

Then after this came the "bad times", as a result of the fact that I had actually done my duty well enough… For it was only for having done our duty, that they could select the best from among us and use them to create this other group - to create a personal security unit for Mussolini. And, as a matter of fact, we actually had to go; there was nothing we could do about it, as simple as that…

Nevertheless, a lengthier story is certainly the one concerning our coming back here to this town by bicycle… Ha, ha, ha. Cycling from Salò right up to Castel Noceto, is that right? And thinking that I had with me not only my baggage, but also all my documents, my uniform and everything else…! And yet I wasn't disturbed by anybody.

The only bit of trouble I did have was here in town because some people would say, 'What could this one be?' 'He's a Fascist!' I remember I was then called to the Municipality offices, and the Captain who was there asked me what I had gone to do in Russia. I simply said to him, 'Well… don't you think I too could ask you the same question?'

They had asked us to go out there, and just like every good citizen I had only done what I felt was my duty. I hadn't therefore done any harm to anybody… and, that's all what it really was!

Then there were all those facts regarding the Russian Campaign, and which were made up of millions of very tiny details: for instance, the fact that when we entered and carried out the occupation, the population was almost favourable to our intervention. They felt that in us they had found friends and not enemies… right! And, as a matter of fact, we did as much good to them as we could: we had a chaplain who was always busy baptising their children since they would come over and implore him to baptise them, right…! Plain truth…!

Yes, sure, I was called-up.

Now, let's see; it must have been 1942… Let's see; in 1939 the all of us had been mobilised. We were… let's say, paramilitaries; not really… What I mean to say is that… the order to depart had arrived without forewarning, without anything. I was simply compelled to report there with my call-up postcard, and then, away we went…! We were brought here to Cavalier Maggiore and furnished with equipment. After this we were loaded onto these troop trains and had to spend fifteen long days on what truly was a nightmarish journey!

And yet we managed to survive even this time; at least… unfortunately not all of us did: of the many who left, only a few of us were able to come back… And even these few, for something or the other, are now dead. A friend of mine lost a foot and I then had to carry him on my shoulders for two kilometres: this guy is dead now! And so is Angelo, what was he was called…? Logano - even him! He was in the Alpine Troops… and also him, poor thing, he died. And there are still many others who are there no more.

I had therefore gone to Finale to work at the factory of the "Piaggio", and had worked for only fifteen days when the order asking me to withdraw arrived; I was thus compelled to quit my job and report to Brescia in order to join this group of… personnel… Well, it was really an agony; after which I then came here to Casal Noceto and dedicated myself to any kind of job that would be available, as long as this would have meant being able to work and earn something for myself. I decided to dedicate myself to working on the countryside and, as time passed, was allowed to do so - this was partly because they wished to show me how grateful they really were, and partly because they knew I needed it quite badly.

So I began working on the countryside. I took part in the "battle for wheat"! I was a machine-operator - the person in charge of the threshing machines. We had three of them and, well; this is how I began to make ends meet… I was earning really good money, in spite of the fact that we always had to keep our eyes open and constantly pay attention to what was being done. In my role as chief operator, I was in charge of the receipt books and had to make a daily report on how much grain had been threshed all over the place, and such kind of things. And, as it were, one could never be too careful enough because there were people belonging to the black-market who, be it with tobacco or with wheat, were always ready to sell and gain as much as they could: they would sell wheat at 33,000 Lire per ton, and only they themselves could have known what exuberant prices they levied on tobacco! Black market agents everywhere! They had become the masters in town that’s it. And, quite unfortunately, once faced by these money-grubbers one would normally have no other choice but to surrender.

Despite all this, I still refused to give in. I went ahead doing my work and said, "well, this is how it appeals to me, if not… they can continue doing things differently as they would chose to…" I went on with my work, sometimes thinking about my grandchildren: as it were, the well-being of my family was the only thing that really did matter to me.

Then I moved on to another job: I went to work at the "Roll", the distillery that is situated nearby, and continued working there for quite a long time. After this I worked with a firm called "Fornasari", and from there sought and found employment with yet another firm in Brescia. There was this engineer who, after having decided I was really a likeable fellow, said to me, 'Ingaramo, I want you here with me!' He had then seen to finding a vacancy for me with him in his firm, where I felt quite at ease and earned well enough, as it were…

Well, it certainly was a rather haphazard way of living, don't you think so? You never knew what was going to come up the next day, unfortunately…

I am unable to remember the dates connected with…

Well, the fact about the Russian Campaign is that we arrived and did the occupation. We went out of our way, all of us together, to cater for the wellbeing of the civilian population that had warmly welcomed us and had always respected us: despite the presence of that beastly tyrant who later died, He had treated them like slaves; the poor devils!

We departed from Cavalier Maggiore, and it took us a fortnight to get there. Once we had arrived in Calco we were taken to a huge coniferous forest and made to wait there. We pitched up our tents and made all the preparations that were… let's say, the rudiments of a military camp, while awaiting orders which were supposed to arrive from Gomel: it was only from here that it could be decided whether we had to go into action or not.

The civilian population in Calco, as it were, was more or less "neutral" - and as a matter of fact, was really more friendly than adverse towards us! However, when we were ordered to advance and move forward, we first attacked the Russians who were in Gomel. We had quite a violent battle with them here, and several people were wounded even though the fighting was very brief… just two, two or three days and nothing more. After this everything came to a standstill: everything was calm again.

After this we were able to resume our march once more. We crept forward close to each other in extended-line formation. At a pace of forty kilometres per day, we steadily drew closer and closer to the Donec; the River Donec, which we would then have to cross in order to continue advancing towards the enemy. And therefore, on and on we went: after all it really wasn't that… let's say we actually didn't encounter all that much difficulty or impediments. We knew we were on our way to fight, but were not at all troubled by this. The way in which we were commanded was let's say, rather gentle; it was kind and not brutal.

Another thing I hadn't yet said concerns the correspondence. For as long as we were able to go to Mass we continued receive mail. The correspondence came in once every five days: we would receive packs from home and proceed to claim them no sooner than they had arrived. But, of course, very soon there were also some dishonest guys who started doing business with all the stuff that was arriving from home, and would sell items off for just a few Roubles! The Command therefore came up with a restriction policy on packs: this practically meant they would first leave the packs to accumulate, and then send for their receivers to come and withdraw them personally. Furthermore, before delivery they would make sure that they had already checked its contents, just to make sure they knew what it was that was being received: in short, they saw to it that nothing we could have used for making trouble would slip through!

Well, we successively continued advancing and carried on with our march of occupation. We came to Ricovo, then we went on to take Voroshilo, that is to say Voroshilograd, okay…? And yet we still hadn't met even the slightest resistance! Eventually, the only resistance we actually did come across was when we found ourselves in proximity of the Don - and this time it was a really fierce one! At Figonovo, Bogoscia, and Katiuscia: all these were their areas of massive deployment that had ended up being completely surrounded; and we were, on our side, under orders to attack them!

Apart from the fighting there really wasn't anything left for us to do, and so we simply tried to manage as best we could. The same thing applied to the food because mealtimes were not quite regular: the food would arrive in time on one occasion, and very late on another. Consequently, we decided to look into the matter for ourselves, considering that this country was particularly bountiful with snails: we would in fact gather pails of snails, have them cleaned up, and have our fill. And, Oh boy, how many frogs I devoured! Believe me, they were quite a delicacy!

We would dedicate ourselves to some "activities" - well, it was all too natural that whatever the troops had been used to doing in Italy would be replicated here as well… it's of no use insisting… Whenever we could we would sneak out to steal a few piglets, or perhaps a hen, or… yes, these kind of things… well…

Certainly, the journey had been a very difficult one, quite a tough journey! One thing that I will never forget was when we were already in Warsaw. There was this bridge over which the train passed, and underneath this was a colony of nudists; all of them were naked! Then there were also some Germans who must have probably lived in Warsaw, who knows. And they were there; busy watching this thing that was… well… our train had then continued on its way.

The return from Clisc: we actually left from Clisc; we boarded a train, a train that had been prepared by the Germans. In Clisc the Germans had requisitioned every single hotel that existed in the township. They had then had them thoroughly cleaned: beds, bed-sheets and everything else. We would have showers every morning. Then we also underwent a series of medical check-ups, and were given injections before we finally left for Italy.

We departed from Clisc, and from Clisc we repatriated to Germany and then to Austria until we arrived in Vienna. And here we were received with… as victors. They had everything already paid for us - shops, trips to the cinema! We would go… any place we went to had already been paid.

Then were aboard the trains once more - and this time the ones with first and second class cars, right? Now, since the other passengers on the train were evidently being treated better than we were, we began to say, ' why is it that they are able to travel in the first and second class cars while we are stowed away in a lousy troop train?'

They probably must have understood this because things then did change a little bit. However, such change was only able to last until our re-entry into Italy. In fact, on our arrival the reception we were given was even worse than what is normally reserved for traitors! They took us to a camp in Bologna known as Due Madonne, and subjected us to a period of quarantine. We weren't allowed to go out – it was needless even trying - and the food they gave us wasn’t good at all. When relatives visited one he would find himself in front of a grill and could only speak to them from a distance of four or five metres – no shorter distance than this was permitted! Furthermore, they would always lecture to us, telling us we had to keep quiet about the things we had seen in Russia: the things that our commanders had done!

They themselves, on the other hand, were left free to go out, were not quarantined, and were allowed to loiter around. Nevertheless, when they finally gave us the discharge papers and we therefore knew that this time we were really on our way home, I managed to "kick up quite a shindy" at the train station. In fact, there was an attempt by the stationmaster to prevent us from boarding passenger trains. Well, try to imagine for yourselves what happened then…!

We departed from Bologna and arrived in Milan, and coming from Milan I then got off from the train here at Tortona… It is from here that I made my re-entry into the Italian scene: the partisan war had already began, and the eight per ce… the 8^th of October… I mean to say the 8^th of September, was already round the corner when it came… and, well…

In 1943, when there were elections…

Yes… I talked with him up at Vittoriale, and aboard the ship "Puglia": for me… I have always held him in high esteem because he was a very reasonable man - now, as to whether he might have been betrayed, or that they may have simply tricked him, nobody really knows. But for me he was a very… very good person. He was concerned about everything, and in person. He would stop everyone he chanced to come across with his, ‘How are you? How is the correspondence with your relatives going? Where are you from?’ He wanted to be informed about everything…!

And as for our duty, it simply consisted in abiding by the orders of the German Command. We would dress up in civilian clothes, and then orders would arrive instructing us to follow, or to go and accompany him. Now he would be travelling to Rome, and then from Rome he would be returning once more to Rocca Della Camminate and to his house, where his wife, his daughter Annamaria, Bruno and Romano his sons, and all his family were.

Well, I hope you don’t judge him to be the person the others have always judged him to be, okay…? The day he was taken prisoner it was quite by coincidence that we happened to be in… Brescia. He was arrested and taken to that famous villa along with Petacci – now, as for this Petacci… I had often seen her, but had never considered her to be a woman… whatever she really was, nobody can tell. Anyhow, she used to come to the Vittoriale very frequently.

We were stationed at the Municipality where lodgings had been arranged for us. There was an information office, and it was from here that the orders would come… but the people who were in command, the ones who were in charge of everything, were the Germans. Then there were also… another group, specially selected from the 10^th Mas, which was stationed at Gargnano – they were all excellent boys, and all of them really young…!

Our duty was that of guarding the place - of keeping an eye on every single movement in Salò and making sure there weren’t any traitors around who might, let’s say, have had intentions of trying to assassinate Mussolini. No… this is what they actually didn’t do; and even though they had the possibility of doing so, they never did it… well, yes… our duty consisted in watching over all the command posts.